Josh Wattles, Advisor In Chief To deviantART Interviewed

We talk with Josh Wattles of deviantArt about the soical netowrkng site and its new collection of  photos now available through Fotolia.

  

Josh Wattles brings a unique and learned perspective to the world of photography in his role as Advisor in Chief to deviantART. Josh has a distinguished career as a lawyer, executive and academic. Josh headed up a staff of 60 lawyers at Paramount Pictures.  As a senior intellectual property lawyer for Paramount Communications, Josh advised Paramount on film, book publishing, sports and cable television matters, and was a key player in the music industry’s anti-piracy programs. He helped to create the industry’s collective licensing organization for cable and satellite retransmissions of television programs and films in the EU.

Josh has also been an in-house litigator for the American Society of Composers Authors and Publishers (ASCAP), and at Paramount he ran all of its music operations, including the production of numerous award-winning multi-platinum soundtracks and management of its significant music publishing interests: The Famous Music Publishing Companies. Josh was the founding president of Mixonic.com, an active online CD and DVD replication company, and he created and developed both the strategy and technology for Xingtone.

Josh’s private clients have in addition to motion picture studios; music companies and new media properties have included the World Monuments Fund, Dorothy Hamill, Televisa, and J.K. Rowling. Josh is a professor in copyright law at Southwestern University Law School and at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. He is a former president of the Los Angeles Copyright Society.

Josh, so you were headed into a photography career and ended up as Chief Advisor to one of the most visited sites on the Internet. Can you give us a brief history of how you originally got into photography and your journey to where you are now? 

At 15 I started as an intern and then as an assistant for fashion photographers in Manhattan.  This was in the ‘60’s.  I got some good jobs shooting reportage and thought I should work instead of going to college.  A mentor at the time told me to get educated.  I did and after a period as a fine artist went on to law school.  I wanted to practice “art law.”  I feel like some 30 or so years later I finally ended up where I thought I was headed.

Your title is “Advisor in Chief”. What kind of advice does a Chief Advisor give…and to whom? 

I advise the deviantART on legal and business matters including strategy and execution.  I am available to everyone on the staff and a surprising number of them take advantage of having me around.  Some actually listen to the advice and few might even follow it from time to time.

DeviantART, is reported to have over 18.5 million members, nearly 200 million submissions, and gets over 140,000 new submissions per day. DeviantART users upload over 1.4 million "favorites" and 1.5 million comments every day!  The domain deviantart.com pulls in something like 50 million unique visitors monthly.  It is the largest social networking art site in the world. That all seems overwhelming to me. How on earth does someone get a handle on all of that…I mean, you couldn’t see all the art in a lifetime even if you dedicated your whole life to it! For those wishing to dive into deviantART, where do you begin? How should one approach it?

The way deviantART reaches those numbers is in aggregating thousands of interest groups each of which may be quite small.  But in your area, photography, we have millions of members who identify themselves as working in that medium.  DeviantART is a community set around a grouping of tools that allows them to interact and share their work with like-minded folks.  The beauty in that is that they get their own handles around each other.  Our job as staff is to make sure the tools are working correctly.

I come from the world of commercial photography where earning money is a primary concern. In the deviantART world how important is earning money?

Some members of the site are working artists, some are collectors and fans, some are amateurs – we really have every kind on the platform all of whom use it in very different ways and for different reasons.  There are photographers soliciting and obtaining work off of the site and there are art directors using the site to find photographers.  There are others who use it for creative feedback.  Some use the site for inspiration on how to handle their next assignment or to take advantage of the thousands of tutorials.  All of these relate to earning money.  But the primary focus is on a community of support for the art that you produce or that you enjoy.

I see that there are several moneymaking ventures available on deviantART including prints sales and T-shirts. Is there money to be made through those and other deviantART offerings?

T-shirts are made by deviantART and sold as deviantART merchandise.  Any member of the site can offer their work in the form of prints that we can manufacture for them and ship worldwide.  Premium members of the site can also set their own prices and royalties for the prints.

DeviantArt is now moving into the world of commercial stock photography with a micro offering through Fotolia. What took so long? 

Actually, there is vast amount of stock photography, images, brushes and digital materials already available on deviantART and shared by the members.  This has been true since the beginning.  Thousands of photographers on deviantART participate in other web-based stock offerings like Fotolia, iStockPhoto, and so forth.  DeviantART itself is not moving into stock photography as a business. The deviantART Collection by Fotolia http://www.fotolia.com/dacollection was created for the benefit of our members, and Fotolia has been a great partner in this because they are completely dedicated to the stock business.  We do think that users will be attracted to the deviantART brand in the context of a formal stock offering.  The images in the collection are quirky, more leaning towards editorial use and artistic in intent rather than illustrative.

Is the deviantART community showing much interest in this new stock photo project?  

Those who are in the collection are absolutely delighted and others are following its progress.  It is still very early to tell how we are doing and to decide how we will expand the collection to include many more participants.

What does deviantART bring to stock photography that isn’t found elsewhere? 

We hope to bring an overarching attitude and aesthetic in the images that get distributed under the brand.  It is hard to place in words what deviantART’s collection “looks like” because it deviates from the norm.  That’s what the name deviantART means.

What are deviantART’s plans, if any, for expanding further into the world of stock photography? 

This first venture was an experiment between both parties involved (deviantART and Fotolia) and the success of this collection will be a large part of the decision making process. At this point it’s too early to tell what direction we would take, although the initial uptake is very promising.

I have been pretty heavily involved in the professional photography world for over thirty years, yet deviantART has barely been on my radar. Does deviantART have something to offer professional photographers? 

The core value of deviantART to professionals is audience. And this audience is comprised of art-centric viewers who are happy to provide constructive critique.  To give you an example: I had a one-man show of photographic works at a strong gallery in San Franciso several years’ back.  If you discount the people there more for the drinks and less for the art, at the opening party, my work was seen by maybe 200 interested people.  If I sold a monograph through a real publisher, maybe I could move 4,000 copies and it would be a big hit.  Now compare that to deviantART, where in two years my work has been seen more than 180,000 times and I am not a particularly popular artist on the site.

I believe that the biggest challenge facing photographers today is getting their work seen.  From your perspective what are the challenges that face artists in general and photographers in particular, and how can deviantART help with those challenges? 

Getting your work seen has never been an automatic proposition and it isn’t on deviantART either.  But the social tools provided on deviantART are very useful for building audience.  Within a short time you can find compatible members who in turn provide exposure to other members.  You can use the Groups system to find affinity groups for particular genres and types of work.  Then the members of those groups will expand the audience further.  People can share links to your work on other social networks.  Professionals have an obligation to get themselves out there.  Connection with an audience is an end goal because you can never tell who sits in the audience and what they will contribute to the advancement of your work.  No other site provides access to an audience interested in art on its own.  Photographers on deviantART gain adjacency to other works of art and to artists in over 2,500 categories and media.  That expanse and the opportunities it presents for growth and exploration are simply not available elsewhere.  DeviantART like any social environment requires that you apply yourself within the social circle.  You need to reach out to people.  But the value is that the people are there 24/7.  It’s never an empty space.  It is always populated.

The deviantART stock offering is being billed as a truly unique collection yet is being priced at the microstock level. Has deviantART considered a higher price point? Is there a possibility of a higher priced collection in the future?

Yes and Yes.

Will deviantART be offering stock collections through other distributors?

Certainly not in the near term.  Fotolia has proven itself.  It is the only stock company out there that genuinely understands deviantART and that is committed to our unique blend of community and commerce.

Does deviantART have plans for a similar motion or video offering?

Not at this time.

It is still early with the deviantART collection on Fotolia, but do you have indications yet on how it is performing? 

It is doing quite well but we will not be releasing public numbers.

Is a similar project for illustration a possibility?

Certainly a possibility and an excellent proposition; but not a current priority.

You have quite a strong background in the music industry. Has that background given you any insights into how photographers, and other artists, might be able to weather the threats of online copyright infringements, plummeting prices and image inundation? 

While you mention three big challenges to the photography business, we should also keep in mind that the use of photographic content has exploded with the Internet and the Web.  Among other things, online businesses have produced a multi-billion grossing micro stock industry.  I hope the next major step for monetizing photography will be streams of visual content delivered to screen displays at both commercial locations and to the home.  It would be like a form of visual radio broadcast.  This is quite different than television where the viewer is essentially forced to attend.  Like radio, visual streams would occur in the foreground or the background depending on what the consumer pays attention to and would be “dialed-in” to a type and style of visual stream that the user is interested in for the moment.  Just like ASCAP and BMI for music, collective organizations could monitor image uses, collect licensing fees and distribute royalties to artists.  The cost of a 24” x 36” digital display is now the equivalent of a single photograph in the same size by a middle level photographer in a well-made custom frame.

Is there much of a problem on the deviantART site with people claiming others work as their own? How is that policed?  

DeviantART has a very robust copyright policy.  It takes down infringing content when properly requested.  Since the community is made up of co-creators presenting their own work, we are policed by the community with a level of attention that’s pretty intense.  In addition, there is a culture of mutual respect at work among peers.  This is quite different than other sites that aggregate content just for the sake of the aggregation.

Josh, do you have a favorite image or your own work, and the story behind it that you can share with us? 

One of the features we provide on deviantART for members is the ability to create collections from all of the works on the site.  These are called “favorites” a term used by deviantART long before Facebook and others adopted it.  This is a link to my favorites gallery: http://makepictures.deviantart.com/favourites/

I have found that looking at an artist’s “favorites” gallery on deviantART frequently says more about their worldview, taste, philosophy, attitude and state of mind than looking at the artist’s own work.   When someone chooses your work as a “favorite” you get a notice sent to you in your internal messaging center on deviantART to that effect.  You can then see how your work is being considered by its adjacency to other choices and preferences of the viewer. This kind of feedback loop is gold in terms of gaining an understanding of how your work is perceived by others.

Josh, what have I forgotten to ask, or what else would you like to share with us? 

You can’t ask a professor a question like that without risking an endless boring lecture. Haha.

New Work: Woman Riding A Galloping Elephant

 Impossible, "cartoonish", and yet fun to look at and full of concepts. I predict this will be a successful stock photo.


New Work

In the continuing evolution of my photography blog I am going to start sharing more of my new work here. When I create an image that especially pleases me, or has some sort of quality that I think is worth mentioning, whether it is artistic in nature or something that enhances the images value in the market place, I will post the image here on this blog along with my reasons for doing so.

Elephant Ride

In this case the image is another of my “funny elephant pictures”, one of a young woman galloping at speed on an elephant. Now I will be the first to admit that this is kind of a strange image. It is almost cartoonish…and we all know that elephants don’t gallop when they run, and even if they did, it wouldn’t look like this one! Nonetheless, I believe it will be a successful stock photo.

A Feeling Of Freedom And Adventure

This image won’t work for everyone, but it works for me. First and foremost, it makes me smile when I look at it. We all know that photographers are terrible editors of their own work…and that maybe the case here, but the fact is I just plain enjoy looking at this picture. I love the way the woman looks joyful, the feeling of freedom and adventure I get from her with her dress and hair flowing in the wind. I love the contrast between her delicate form and the massiveness of the elephant. I can almost feel the thud as the elephant's feet pound into the earth with each huge leap. I believe that others will fee the same way and equally enjoy looking at this photo. Hopefully that will make the image a great stock photo…time will tell.

Elephants In Thailand, Backgrounds In Mongolia

I photographed the woman in my studio. She was sitting on moving blankets covering apple crates. Stephanie pulled out on her dress and, when she let go I would fire off a shot capturing the movement of the material as it snapped back. We did additional shots in which Stephanie would perform a gentle toss of the model’s hair giving that its movement as well. The elephant I photographed in Thailand. It was actually standing still. I used six different elephant shots to composite this one together. The background was near the Gobi desert in Mongolia, of all places! Actually, it was two different shots in Mongolia, one with just the grass and one with the mountains and sky.

Elephants, Nature and Symbolism

On a conceptual level this image has a lot going for it. Elephants are very positive symbols for us including the representation of strength, power, memory, loyalty and even nobility. The green environment offers a positive view of nature. The woman wears a white dress indicating purity. That she wears no jewelry or shoes indicates closeness to nature, and the fact that she is riding an elephant indicates confidence, skill and even mastery.  What I would call ancillary symbolism includes speed, accomplishing the impossible, and even teamwork (the woman and the elephant are both enjoying themselves in a co-operative effort). Another possibility is that this is a photograph of creativity. There is room for even more symbolic meanings that can easily be tapped into through the right headlines and copy.  And yes, I purposely left plenty of room for the inclusion of headlines and body copy or inset photos.

Tired Of Social Media

Social media can be a boon to business, or it can steal your time.

An Endless Stream Of Shared Photos

I’m fading fast…at least with social media.  I checked facebook tonight for the first time in a week (and realized someone had sent me an important message five days ago…). I have no desire to peruse Pinterest…not to mention that I have some doubts about their terms of use. My eyes start to glaze over at just the thought of that endless stream of shared photos on Google+. My only Linked In participation seems to be confirming people who want to link to me…people I either barely know or don’t know at all.  And speaking of not knowing people, my twitter followers just keep increasing whether I tweet or not, and lately it has been mostly not.

Social Media…And No Significant Effect

My primary interest in social media has always been to increase the traffic to my site. Google analytics indicates that just isn’t happening. Out of approximately 1500 unique visitors a day to my site, less than a dozen come from social media sources. While I am hoping social media can provide me with more link juice, that doesn’t seem to be having a significant effect either.

Tired Of Social Media

I guess I am just tired of social media. I seldom get tired of photography. I spent today prepping for a stock shoot I am doing on Friday. That was fun. Friday’s shoot will be fun. I would much rather be creating images that posting them on a social media site.  Of course I love it when people enjoy my photography, but not as much as when I enjoy my photography!

Creating Stand Out Stock Photos

I got into stock photography so I could really focus on what I enjoy doing, creating photos that I want to create and that can earn me a good living. Social media has been creeping up on me, stealing time away from what I truly enjoy doing…making those stock images.  I am not going to quit social media, but I will be doing just a bit less of it…and a bit more of creating what I hope are stand out stock photos. Stock photos that are needed in the market place, and stock photos that hopefully can stand up to the intense competition that is the stock photo world.

Evolve Images...A New Approach

A new stock agency with a new approach, Evolve Images offers an innovative route to the business of stock photography.

A new stock agency with the intriguing name “Evolve Images” has opened its doors. The three founders of Evolve , Mark Ippolito, Robert Henson, and Jonothan Solomon certainly have a ton of experience between them having held numerous positions at such leading stock agencies as Getty Images, Corbis, Blend Images, Photodisc, and Comstock.  What they are offering is a highly curated collection, a new method of pricing that seems sort of a RF and RM hybrid, and the promise of “Sustaining A Creative Economy”.

 Their pricing model is simple. They claim that with three clicks you’ll have your price. You just choose editorial or commercial, choose digital, print, or both, choose one year, two years, or three years, and finally, choose an industry from their pull-down menu. There is also the option of “Requesting a quotation”. Those of us used to more criteria for Rights Managed pricing are at once pleased with the ease of use and left wondering if the pricing might be too general. I guess the only way to judge that is in the performance.  If Evolve Images licenses enough photos who is going to argue?  Evolve also emphasizes that they will pay the photographer (or copyright holder) at least 50% of the licensing fee. For images that Evolve represents exclusively the royalty paid to the creator is 65%. No argument there for sure! Another innovative approach includes price adjustments for more “valuable” images (though exactly how that value is determined is unclear to me).

On the submission side it is interesting to note that Evolve is willing to take on images captured on camera phones, stills edited from digital video capture, consumer-level digital cameras, etc. Evolve offers image exclusive distribution for one (1) year or non-exclusive image distribution for three (3) years, with auto-renewal at the end of the term unless notified 90 days prior to the contrary. Also of note, they are not planning on using any sub-agents. Another cool point is that they pay within two weeks of receiving fees.

After spending a fair amount of time on the Evolve Images site it certainly appears to me as if they are a photographer friendly outfit.  In addition to rapid payment and high royalty percentages, they are also stressing image protection with a proactive enforcement policy.  Evolve Images seems very transparent and are encouraging feedback through their blog. All-in-all, Evolve Images has a very interesting approach and I hope they succeed. I will be watching with interest!

What I Know About The Stock Photo Industry

As demonstrated by this stock photo interpretation of the fable of three blind men and an elephant, it is almost impossible to gain a full understanding of the stock photo industry as a contributing photographer.

The Difficulty Of Understanding The Stock Photo Industry

Like the fabled three blind men who happened upon an elephant and each came away with a vastly different impression of what an elephant was, we stock photographers have a very difficult time truly comprehending the stock photo industry. Each of us has a very small window to view things from, a window defined by our style, the number of images in the marketplace, the agencies that represent us, our own prejudices, and the element of “art”, that indefinable quality, that can make one image so much more popular than a close similar.

Sales Statistics

I have been told more than once that unless you have a thousand images in the market you can’t really get a reliable interpretation of sales statistics…the sample is just too small. I don’t know if that holds true in every case, but I do know that as I constantly look over my own sales reports it is exceedingly difficult to come up with any universal truths! In my own case I keep coming up with the conclusion that pretty much everything sells and some things sell far more than others. What use is that information? I suppose it means that I just need to keep producing.

A Predominance Of Concept Stock Photo

Of course, my own sales reports reflect a predominance of concept stock photos that are “post” intensive, in many cases requiring multiple days to complete just one image. I would guess that my conclusions would not be relevant to, for example, a travel shooter or a high-producing lifestyle shooter. In short, my sales reports do not give me an accurate window into the stock photo industry as a whole.

Microstock vs. Traditional Stock Photography

Another problem I have in attempting to understand the overall industry is my lack of experience in microstock. Microstock is dominating the industry, and yet, other than a dozen or so images in the TAC program through Blend (The Agency Collection which consists of RF priced images that appear on both the Getty site and iStockphoto.com) I have no first hand knowledge. Sure, I hear from friends who shot for micro…but some say things are going great, others say that micro is on the decline, and others say something in between. Oh well….

The Benefits of Licensing Images For Higher Royalties

Microstock shooters certainly don’t have the whole picture without understanding the benefits of licensing images for higher royalties. I am pretty certain that some of my images have brought far more revenues in as Rights Managed images than they ever would have as Royalty Free…and I have other images in which I am relatively sure of the reverse. Of course, I still can’t know entirely for sure because I don’t have the opportunity to see the sales results of a single image that is available in each category. In the few situations where I do have fairly similar images in the different licensing models, including TAC,   a case can be made either way. 

Selling Your Own Stock Photos Online

Then there is that whole selling your own stock photography online thing. While I have been vigorously pursuing my own version of this for the last three years a case can be made that my own experience actually clouds my ability to see the whole. While there are doubtless many photographers who successfully support themselves through selling their own stock, my experience is that after a significant amount of time and effort it is hard to see how I could ever fully support my self with such an endeavor. I make close to two thousand licenses a month through agencies and only a handful through my own efforts. I can’t imagine how I could deal with the volume of transactions that would be necessary to support myself! That no doubt clouds my perception of the stock industry as a whole.

What I know About The Stock Photography Business

So even though I have this totally distorted view of the stock photo business I will go ahead and share what I believe I know at this point:

1.              Most people are not making significant money in stock photography, but a few are doing quite well. Success therefore is possible.

2.              There are many different ways of achieving success as a stock photographer. Some photographers achieve success through massive production, some shooters through amazing images, and others through niches or even a mastery of the Internet.

3.              The biggest challenge for a stock photographer is to get one’s work seen.

4.              The future will see a merging of different license models and price points (as in micro and traditional images available side by side).

5.              Shooting the same thing you have always shot actually does seem to work for some people!

6.              The key to success, if there is such a thing, is attitude.

7.              If I do know anything about achieving success in stock photography, it is subject to change at a moments notice!

Successful Stock Photo Checklist

This image of a hang gliding pig (When Pigs Fly) has a clear concept, is timeless, easily readable even in thumbnail sizes, has an attractive model and has an authentic expression...yet has never sold!

I put together the following checklist of criteria that I use to determine if an image will make a successful stock photo. Of course, you don't need to meet all of these criteria for an image to be a best seller, but it certainly helps to have as many of them as possible. On the other hand, even having all of the attributes listed below does not guarantee a successful stock photo. But you don't need every image to be a hit to have a great career in stock!

Successful Stock Photo Checklist:

Are the models attractive AND appropriate for the situation?

Is the wardrobe upscale and appropriate for the situation?

Are the expressions authentic?

Is the setting appropriate?

Are the DETAILS perfect?

Does EVERYTHING contribute to a clear, concise and quickly readable message?

Is the image a quick read even at thumbnail size?

Is the concept needed in the marketplace?

Is there room for a variety of crops?

Is there an emotional connection with the image?

Is there space for copy and headlines?

Does the image have staying power?

Does the image feel “real”?

Where have you compromised?

Photography And Dealing With Change

Sometimes the best way to deal with change is to take a deep breath and relax.

The Only Constant Is Change

I had an epiphany last night. It relates to that old adage “the only constant is change”. I have been feeling relieved lately that most of the change facing the photography industry, and the stock photo industry in particular, is behind us. My epiphany, however, is that most of the change is still ahead of us, and will be coming at an ever faster pace! Yikes!

New Cameras, iPhone photos, And Copyright Issues

In just the last month some stock agencies are starting to take iPhone photos, Canon and Nikon have each announced new cameras with ISO ratings of 200,000+, and Le Corbusier, the French furniture company, has won a lawsuit claiming that use of their products in stock photos is a copyright violation. Geez. The change affecting our industry is coming from all directions!

A Strategy To Deal With Change

Whether it is real or perceived, the need to keep up with rapidly proliferating social media developments, technology advancements in both stills and motion, the endless struggle with copyright issues on and offline, the ever increasing influx of imagery, as well as all the other coming changes that I cannot even imagine, is threatening to overwhelm me! The realization that such an onslaught is not going to abate, but rather accelerate, makes me realize that I need some sort of strategy to deal with all this change. Trying blindly to keep up with it isn’t working and is actually cutting into my productiveness, and more importantly, my satisfaction with life!

Google + And Flailing

When I first took up rock climbing (indoors only…I am actually a bit of a coward), my instructor-and girl friend, Stephanie, lovingly demonstrated what I looked like during my climb. She called it flailing. Thrashing wildly about is what it looked like to me. That is how I started to feel last night trying to figure out Google +. I added 500 photographers to my circle, I think. I dunno…but I do know I was flailing! It wasn’t pretty, and flailing is never good.

Less Can Be More

When it comes to dealing with change less can often be more. For example, rather than diving full-bore into social media efforts, and possibly getting sucked into a bottomless pool of plus ones, likes and links, something that can easily consume all the hours I have in a day, I am better off just dipping a toe in the water and watching the relentless current swirl around me without having to thrash wildly about. Most of those hours will be far better spent making cool images and enjoying my life.  That seems to me pretty much true of all these changes. It seems to me that it is better to embrace change with caution rather than abandon.

A New Mantra

So my new strategy for dealing with change is simply a mantra: No flailing! When that anxiousness starts to well up, I will just remind myself to keep enjoying the moment and remember not to flail!